~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I remember when I first saw you...
Ah, how I longed to be that cold, spring breeze that ruffled your ruddy locks, or that gentle drizzle that soaked your shoulders and lighted softly upon your shivering, pink lips. I would have settled on being the grasses beneath your feet or the steed you trotted down the road past my home. I wished to be anything that could feel your bare skin, but I was just a distant shadow watching from my balcony that you didn't even notice.
That would change though. I would make it.
You would soon notice how little problems you had would go away. Wasn't it odd how that debt collector became ill and died? Did you not suspect when those thugs dropped like flies at your doorstep before you could unlock the bolt? I'm sure you found it stranger still how little gifts were left in your nightstand in the morning- sums of gold, flawless gems, priceless trinkets. I know you had to wonder who could bless you so graciously.
The Divines? Tch. Their love is a pebble compared to the monument of feelings I have for you.
How is it that you hadn't noticed me until now? The one who gazed so lovingly while you carried on in the market and trudged to and from work? The one who waited patiently for you in the tavern while you threw yourself all over the wenches and-
Of course! I am the one who slit their throats while they slept in their dens of sin. They call out to you like sirens and lure you into the depths which you are too naive to avoid. Every one who pulled you close in the late hours of the night and all the ones who tricked you into saying 'love' met their ends at the tip of my blade! But I digress...
Crazy? Hah! Only in the love I have for you! I did all of this for you! Don't you see now? I have lied, I have stolen, I have murdered, but only for you! I cannot stand to spend another day away from you. I must confess this burning feeling that consumes my every thought. You fill my waking moments with longing and my dreams are of our future. I know you feel the same! You must feel the same!
… I see.
After all this, you feel nothing. I can't understand, but maybe I can accept. Grant me this, and then I'll go. I want your eyes. I want to always look into them and remember this warm feeling. I'll pluck them from your skull and keep them in a jar. They'll look so nice beside the braided strand of your hair. I want to touch your skin once more, but not while it's warm from sleep. I want to feel it cold and pale, so maybe then you won't flinch away from my touch. I want to kiss your lips and taste the bittersweet blood that coursed through your veins. I've tasted many others, but I wonder if yours will be sweeter.
You seem scared of me now. Do you finally realize who I am? My love, if only you could have seen me sooner. You see, if I can't have you, I won't let anyone else take you. Perhaps I'll follow right behind you. Into Aetherius or into the Void, wherever you decide to run, I'll go. You need not fear, for I love you greatly.
But maybe I'll let you whimper a little longer. Gods, you look even more adorable when you're afraid.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Hey y'all!
This is my second build on the site, and my first posted without a prompt/event. I'm super excited to show off this one as it's probably one of the most difficult playthroughs I've ever done. Don't let that turn you off of it though. There are a lot of self imposed rules for this build, so it can be as easy or as challenging as you'd like.
Fair warning, this build is heavily modded. I play on PC with all three DLCs installed, so some of the mods may or may not be available for every console. I'll include the links to the mods I use, but not all the mods are necessary. If you have any questions, feel free to comment below and ask!
(Original Image from BigDead93 at https://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/bigdead93/nocturnal . Edit by myself, KendrixTrixie.)
The Yandere was born in the mountains of High Rock, perhaps one of the most dreary places of all Tamriel to be brought into the world. When it snowed, it was a ceasing blizzard that lasted days. When it was clear, the heat of Mundus bounced off the rock-face and became sweltering. Their days were spent huddled in a tent for warmth or traversing the mountain side as a goat herder. It was rare to see anyone outside of their small hermit clan, outside of the bandits and orc hunting parties that came to claim their livestock. They longed for a life outside of those forsaken mountains.
That was why they were drawn to Skyrim. On those hot, clear days, Yandere could see that distant land that taunted them with freedom and adventure. The books on the land promised rich culture, fertile farmlands, and beautiful landscapes. Anything sounded better than the endless miles of gray stone and tan grasses that they had seen for all the years of their life. Yandere decided within themselves when they came of age, they would take their inheritance and go to that distance land to make a new name for themselves.
When the day came, there were less heartfelt goodbyes and more glares of disdain. Yandere didn't care. They would never again have to look upon those same faces or stare as the same rocks day in and day out. Their inheritance was measly compared to the work they did all their life, but they would make do. It was enough to purchase a plot of farmland, some livestock for added income, and materials for a small home. Once settled in, they knew they could begin adventuring and making real gold, but they were content for the most part.
Skyrim was everything it had promised, but there was one thing they weren't prepared for. From the moment their eyes fell on that person, they lost all sense of why they came to Skyrim. They could see their whole future wrapped up in that one individual, that “Senpai” so to speak. Whatever gold they had, what ever treasures they could find, Senpai deserved it all. Yandere decided from then on, their home would simply be a base to plan, organize, and carry out their new goal: have Senpai for their own.
The first step would be trying to get Senpai to notice them...
“Yandere” is a blend of the Japanese words “yanderu”, which means “sick”, and “deredere”, which means love-struck. A Yandere is an extremely popular archetype in anime and manga, so much so that it has branched out into some westernized cartoons and games. Typically, a Yandere is a female that falls deeply in love with another character. She then will do anything to defend that love, going as far as to murder others who have an interest in her love (who she typically refers to as Senpai). She kills in secret however, partially to keep a blameless reputation and partially to keep her Senpai from fearing her. If that wasn't bad enough, a Yandere's Senpai rarely reciprocates the feelings or notices her at all. This means a Yandere's actions are driven entirely from her own fantasies about herself and the clueless lover.
One of the most difficult parts of the building process was to translate the general idea of an anime girl “Yandere” into a fully functional character in the world of Tamriel. Since there are many differences between the two, I made a list of some of the highlights of a typical Yandere and made it a mission to translate them into a playable character:
Find “Senpai”
Acquire a “Home Base”
Eliminate Characters the Pose a Threat or Get Too Close to Senpai
Have Blameless Reputation
Do Missions for Senpai
Bring Gifts to Senpai
Take Gifts that Remind Yandere of Senpai
Confess Love
After figuring out how to incorporate each point, I played several hours with strict guidelines to make sure this character was actually functional. I discovered that not only does this build play well with anime fans, but it should pose an interesting and challenging build for those that are not. Each and every Yandere is different, so the rules are flexible for each player's needs. I will continue talking about that in the “Gameplay/Roleplay” sections.
Race:
Breton. The Yandere is both beautiful and charming and I've yet to meet a Breton that wasn't both. Their Alderi-Meric heritage give them both man and mer abilities, so they make a good starting character for this particular build. They are also able to get another ability from whichever standing stone they choose to attune to (with the Imperious mod).
The Yandere is mainly female, but choosing to play as a male will not effect this build. Whatever the gender of your Yandere, Senpai is sure to love you, right?
Standing Stone:
The Lover or The Steed. Is it better to love from afar or run into your lover's arms? Either stone works very well for this build, especially with perks from the Andromeda mod. The Steed allows for increased speech, increased carry weight, and faster stamina regeneration, which the Yandere is going to need to get all those gifts back to Senpai in a hurry! The Lover, however, makes gifts easier to come by altogether. It periodically gives the Yandere enchanted weapons and armor as well as brings them back from the brink of death with full health. Senpai is sure to appreciate that! Decisions, decisions.
The Aetherial Crown can be used to include both stones simultaneously, but caution is advised. The Yandere may find themselves debating on giving Senpai their crown as well.
*Birthsign:
The Steed. Senpai is fast when running away. The Yandere must be a little bit quicker. Choosing The Steed birthsign allows Yandere's movements to be faster than normal, which may make a difference between life and death early on. Choosing Third Era signs over the Fourth Era ones allows the Yandere to still attune to any of the stones in Skyrim.
This particular section is part of the Classic Classes and Birthsigns mod, and isn't entirely necessary for the build. I do highly recommend it, however, as it adds a nice boost at the beginning, and helps build the character for you.
Blessings:
Blessing of Dibella, Patron God: Nocturnal. Daughter of the Aedra in the light, Champion of Daedra in the Dark. Worshiping at the Shrine of Dibella grants a good speech boost, and lets others around believe Yandere to be a goodhearted person. Dibella is a renowned goddess, and her followers also have quite the appeal. The facade should be practiced enough so no one begins to suspect Yandere's real devotion is a bit darker. With the Patron Gods of Skyrim mod, Yandere can devote herself to Nocturnal, the Prince of the Shadows, to make sneaking more effective.
The build is still playable without the mod, but the Nightingale questline must be completed fairly early in the game. I will talk more about that in the “Gameplay” section.
Supernaturals:
None. While certainly not opposed to the Daedric gifts, Yandere is afraid Senpai won't love her as a vampire or werewolf. Besides, she must keep a blameless image.
Companions:
No. Why should Yandere have a follower and risk them getting close to Senpai instead? The only good follower is the one Yandere leads to the shrine of Boethiah.
Factions:
Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, Nightingales. Shadow, Blood, and Gold. These are the essence of Yandere. These particular factions are fairly tight knit, and help hone Yandere's skills to be a better lover for Senpai. The Dark Brotherhood helps teach the proper ways to kill without being caught, and it doesn't hurt to be paid to eliminate some of Senpai's enemies. The Thieves Guild gives the opportunity to steal an abundance of wealth and treasure, something Senpai sound be blessed with. The Nightingales are a faction of Yandere's true patron god, and grants her the ability to hide within the shadows. A necessary skill for both assassin and thief.
If Yandere is a Dragonborn, they don't really care about those responsibilities. Their one true devotion is Senpai. Should you choose to join the Greybeards or Blades, it won't have much effect on the build, unless your Senpai is present at the “Season Unending” quest. If that's the case, side with them on every issue. Senpai is always right, after all.
Archetype:
Rogue. Yandere hides in the shadows with daggers and poison and enters the light with gold and grace. This build falls perfectly into the Rogue class. Whether Yandere is more Assassin or Thief class is varies in each playthrough, making it a very versatile and ever changing build.
*Class:
Custom.
Specialization Bonus: +20 Stamina
Combat Skills: One-handed, Smithing
Stealth Skills: Sneak, Speech, Pickpocket, Alchemy
Magic Skills: Enchanting
Secondary Skills: Acrobatics
A unique character such as the Yandere deserves a unique class system. Sneak, Speech, One-handed, Pickpocket, and Alchemy are essential to building this character. Enchanting and Smithing are not required; however, building a class requires 7 main skills so they are included. The Yandere may find themselves risking great falls to retrieve their treasure or catch up to their Senpai. The best secondary skill to combat this is Acrobatics, which lessens the fall damage while giving a much needed stamina boost. Add in a Specialization in Stamina and Yandere is ready to go where ever Senpai's whims call them.
Weapons:
Steel Daggers (2). Yandere has no need of clunky two-handed weapons, or even large one-handed ones. Dual wielding a pair of daggers is sufficient for a quick, clean kill. With proper training, simple daggers can take out the strongest of enemies from the shadows. They'll never know what hit them.
Steel Daggers are listed, but it should be noted that any pair of matching daggers can be used. When getting into the higher levels of one-handed and sneaking, daggers with higher damage tend to be more of an overkill. For a more challenging build, limit the base damage to 12 or below.
Armors:
None. Armors, light or heavy, tend to draw attention to oneself. The best way for Yandere to appear invisible until the time of the attack is to have no armor at all. Simple clothes that are looted or bought from the store work wonderfully for blending into the crowd, or disappearing into the shadows.
For those looking for something more, enchanting average clothes can help tremendously with health regeneration, sneaking, carry weight, and one-handed. Use sparingly. The last thing Yandere wants to do is spend resources of clothes just to burn them when the blood stains won't come out (see the Roleplay section). An alternative is using unarmored robes that already have enchantments. The best set for this build is found during the Dark Brotherhood questline in “The Cure for Madness”. The Jester's Set works wonderfully and looks stylish on any Yandere.
Spells:
None. The Yandere doesn't have time to study magic when Senpai's needs are endless. Spells are loud and costly, while Yandere prefers to stay hidden and use minimal effort.
Shouts:
Become Ethereal, Elemental Fury, Marked for Death, Bend Will. The Yandere doesn't really know if they are Dragonborn or not, nor does it matter. Senpai is the only concern. Still, it's useful to have some shouts on hand. These shouts are used on the defensive, in the event their attack didn't kill their opponent on the first hit. Elemental Fury and Marked for Death allow for faster and more deadly strikes respectively. When Health is low and Yandere needs time to recover, Become Ethereal is a lifesaver. Attacks do not effect Yandere's health and could grant them a smooth getaway. Bend Will is extremely useful for dragons who stay just out of Yandere's reach. Without a bow, it can be difficult to kill a dragon who chooses to stay in the air rather than fight on the ground. By forcing them to land, it evens the odds of a successful kill.
Accessories:
Ritual Shroud of Boethiah, Mask. Nocturnal might be the patron god, but there's no reason Yandere can't dabble in Boethian arts. There's no better pairing than shadow and betrayal. The Shroud of Boethiah is an excellent addition to any attire. It doesn't take the spot of any other clothing, making it an perfect to stack onto previous enchantments. In addition, tribunal masks can be enchanted to conceal Yandere's identity for jobs with a slightly higher degree of being discovered (see Immersive Armors and Sneak Tools mods). They also have a slot of their own, meaning Yandere can be fully dressed for the kill.
Choosing not to install Tribunal Masks with the Immersive Armors mod will not effect the game as long as Sneak Tools is installed. All Dragon Priest masks will conceal Yandere's identity when worn, but will take the place of the head clothing slot.
Stat Placement:
0 Magicka: 1 Health: 2 Stamina
Yandere relies heavily on Stamina for both power attacks and carry weight. For this reason, Stamina should be brought to a minimum level of 250 before focusing solely on Health, or switching the Health to Stamina ration to 2:1. The Yandere can be leveled up indefinitely, but all the available perk points become available around Level 48.(Image by Curse-Never_Dying)
Major Perk Placement:
Sneak: Cling to the shadows, become the shadows. Sneak is a major factor to this build, but is thankfully very easy to level up. Every aspect of this build revolves around the ability to get in and out of places unseen. The combinations of the Ordinator and Sneak Tools mods allows for some interesting abilities and quick leveling. This comes in handy every time you want to sneak into Senpai's house and watch them sleep.
One-handed: The only difficult thing about daggers is trying to decide if Yandere wants to stab someone through the kidneys or silently slit their throat. Equally as important as sneaking, One-handed skills will dictate how proficient Yandere is as a killer. Dual wielding is a must on this build, as are daggers, and Ordinator opens up some unique options in both areas. Paired with the sneaking abilities, Yandere quickly becomes a strong character and challenging opponent. If only Senpai could see those skills.
Minor Perk Placement:
Speech: Good looks and a silver tongue are sure to infatuate all who meet Yandere, yet Senpai still doesn't notice. Good speech skills can force others to spill information or keep it hidden. Bribery, Persuasion, and Intimidation all work well for Yandere, the trick is to know when to use each one. Further, making the right friends in the right places helps with income. With higher level speech skills, merchants might even be willing to buy items Yandere doesn't outright own. They'll keep quiet too, else they'll find a dagger in their back.
Alchemy: Wheat and Blisterwart make a good healing potion, but the Heart and Flesh of a foe make a much more fragrant blend. For moments when backstabbing and throat slitting would draw too much attention, a strong poison is Yandere's best friend. Skyrim is ripe with ingredients of death, so collecting ingredients and brewing the potions won't attract attention. When some unfortunate woman falls dead in the market, who's to say it was Yandere?
Pickpocket: Poison does no good unless placed on the victim. When Yandere can't coat her blade, the next best option is to hand the poison over. The reason pickpocket was included in this build was to ensure an easy way to place the poison and escape before anyone suspects a thing. The Yandere may find Senpai spends too much time with those barmaids in the tavern. With so many witnesses, placing the poison in her mead is safer than running a dagger across her pretty little throat... no matter how much the blood-lust tells Yandere otherwise.
Tactics:
Melee. Unlike other builds that require a mix of ranged, magic, and melee, The Yandere only requires the latter. The mechanics of fighting are “high risk, high reward”, making it very challenging at the lower levels, but very overpowered at the higher ones. Most, if not all, attacks require a combination of sneaking and duel wielding and aim to kill an enemy before they have a chance to attack. While it seems simple enough, there is a lot of in game elements that must be considered before the attacks. Time of day, carry weight, enemy line of sight, and available stamina will tremendously effect the success or failure. Yandere is patient, however; it's better to wait for the shadows than risk being seen. Death comes eventually.
There are instances in which Yandere may die to a low level bandit who grew suspicious too soon. Other times, The Yandere may be able to successfully one-hit a dragon. This all depends on perk pairing in Ordinator. Skills like Backstab, Cloak and Dagger, and Shadow Warrior pair well with Ravage, Savage, and Bite Marks. Perks points may become available when the skills are not quite up to par. Because of this, the build requires a lot of planning, patience, and point saving. The most frustrating part is having the points needed, but not the skill level. The Yandere may need to take out the frustration on wolves, bears, or even deer. Sneaking in for the kill helps further hone the skills, and may even advance they to where they need to be.
Powers:
Looming Presence- “Right Behind You”+“Behind Enemy Lines”+Shroud of Boethiah+Patron God: Nocturnal
Yandere waits, ever patiently, for the perfect moment to kill. It's in this still, oppressive silence that enemies begin to worry. They can feel the eyes burrow into their skin. Their skin crawls when they draw close. Their breath quickens as they forget to savor those last few moments it enters their lungs. The Yandere's Looming Presence is due in part to the Shroud of Boethiah they wear, filling nearby enemies with a sense of dread. They'll search but never see. The combination of Nocturnal's Blessing and perks like “Right Behind You” and “Behind Enemy Lines” grant The Yandere the ability to remain undetected the closer their enemies come.
Now You See Me- “Shadow Warrior”+“Clean Escape”+Shadowcloak of Nocturnal+The Lover Stone
A failed attack usually spells death for the unarmored, but not for The Yandere. Playing a high risk game requires an elaborate back up plan. When first detected, retreating back into the shadows and sneaking allows for two seconds of invisibility, usually enough time for clueless enemies to lose track of Yandere. Staying still may deter them from looking altogether. If enemies are more tough or persistent than average, the second part of the plan may need to be used. For extended invisibility, the agent of Nocturnal can call upon their god to vanish into the shadows once more. As an added protection, the Lover Stone's revival promises to bring Yandere back if they faint. Peek-a-Boo just became slightly more deadly.
Unseen Slaughter: “Cloak and Dagger”+“Shadow Warrior”/Shadowcloak of Nocturnal+Bite Marks
The most damaging strikes are the ones not seen. No one is prepared for a slit throat or a stab in the back. How much more terrifying is an attack from the front with the killer hiding before their very eyes? The Yandere takes advantage of being invisible in the shadows all the time, so it's only right their attacks are equally unseen. After turning invisible, any attack that breaks invisibility will be critical. Even if the attack doesn't kill after the first hit, the bleed damage will ensure a death before they can escape. Frontal attacks may not be clean, but they promise a lot of fun.
The Yandere is by far one of the most interesting characters in terms of gameplay and roleplay. They are an evil character to most, but still call for a bit of empathy. Everything they do is not motivated by a love of self, but a selfless love for another individual. This love, whether it be reciprocated or not, is so powerful to the Yandere they are motivated to drop all of their hopes and dreams to simply improve the life of one individual and eventually find love in their arms. Bearing this in mind, it's hard to imagine a character so full of love and so selflessly devoted finding it withing themselves to kill, steal, and poison for the greater good. Perhaps this is the reason they are so terrifying and fascinating.
To best play this build, I found that most of the quests and rules have to be self-imposed. Depending on the “Senpai” you choose to pursue, there may or may not be a lot of quests revolving around them. Should your Senpai be a member of the Companions for example, it may be best to pursue that questline. If Senpai is a simple townsman, like Ysolda for example, there may not be many quests dealing with their development. It is up to the player to decide how to interact around their Senpai and how to best improve their life. (For example, Ysolda wants the Bannered Mare. Killing Hulda isn't a quest, but I would help “Senpai” achieve her goal.)
There is no limits on who Senpai can be for Yandere: Man, Mer, Beast, Male, Female. It is preferable that Senpai be a marriage candidate as the end goal for The Yandere is to find love with them, but it is all the more tragic if Senpai and Yandere are simply not meant to be. The entire game can be spent trying to win their love and make their lives perfect and be rewarded with nothing. Should this happen, the Yandere will either continue trying to win their affections or, more dramatically, kill them.
Another self-imposed rule that I found quite challenging was never wearing the clothes the Yandere killed in in public. At the beginning, it was very difficult as Yandere was constantly buying clothes and having to drop them after murdering. Most of the gold earned went to buying outfits almost every day until acquiring the Dark Brotherhood and Jester's Set of robes. After that, Yandere carried two sets of clothes at all times: the murder robes and the every day wear. With the low weight of both sets and the high carrying capacity, lugging around the wardrobe didn't make much of a difference.
As mentioned before, most of the rules and quests will be self-imposed unless Senpai is a member of a faction. Always complete missions in Senpai's favor. Should anyone be looking to hurt or hinder Senpai, take them out in private. Yandere's whole world revolves around their Senpai. Keeping that in mind, here are some of the in-game quests that should be completed.
The Dark Brotherhood Questline: The best enchanted clothing for this build is found by following this questline. It is possible to play without acquiring the pieces, but just makes it less fun. Besides, there's no harm in learning how to kill and getting paid for it.
The Thieves' Guild Questline: There's lots of gold to be made working with thieves. Skyrim is full of the rich and wealthy and the Guild knows just were to find the best treasures. Money can be made easily here and extra treasures can be gifted to Senpai. This questline also sets you up to join the ranks of the Nightingales and draws you closer to the Prince of Shadows.
Boethiah's Calling: The Shroud of Boethiah is an essential part of this build, so this quest should be completed as soon as possible. The Champion armor at the end of the quest is non-essential, but there is a certain appeal to being called “Champion” by two Daedric Princes. Further, Boethiah encourages killing and betrayal, and the mission to reclaim her armor is perfect practice for the assassin in training.
Alternate Start: Adds the option to customize your character and then choose where to start the game. Link here.
Andromeda- Unique Standing Stones of Skyrim: Overhauls the abilities given to the player by each of the standing stones and adds a unique second ability while maintaining a lore-friendly feel. Link here.
Classic Classes and Birthsigns: Adds classes and birthsigns into the game to be chosen after equipping a weapon. Link here.
Immersive Armors- Adds new craftable, distributed, lore-friendly armor to the game including masks and robes. Link here.
Immersive Weapons- Adds new craftable, distributed, lore-friendly weapons to the game including staves and clubs. Link here.
Imperious- Races of Skyrim: Overhauls the racial attributes of the vanilla game to add several new, lore-friendly skills and abilities. Link here.
Ordinator- Perks of Skyrim: Overhauls the perk system of the vanilla game and add several new advanced and immersive skills. Link here.
Patron Gods of Skyrim: Adds the option to choose a Patron God, and grants an added blessing from that god. Link here.
Sneak Tools- Adds several new mechanics to the game in terms of sneaking, including concealed identities and slitting throats. Link here.
That concludes this build! I'm super excited to have it finished up and finally written. The write up has taken almost as long as the build playthrough it seems. Haha! I hope you guys enjoy it!
Special Thanks to Curse, who never fails to come in clutch when I can't make a Perk Spread Sheet. :P
Let me know what you think in the comments. If you have any questions, feel free to ask!
As always, Talos Guide You!
Replies
Well shit Kendrix, awesome job. I think you did a great job Skyrimizing a Yandere
I'm glad you liked it, Chris! I can't wait to see your rendition of this character!
Yeah, may take some time. Plus, I recently played some Yandere Simulator to help get into the Yandere mindset
Haha I love this. Very unique concept and your presentation is stunning, as usual. Great job Kendrix. Everything is well explained, clear, concise, and entertaining.
Thanks! Curse helped a lot with my first build, so I just took what I learned from him! I'm glad everything written was clear as well. It was very difficult to describe this character in a way everyone could understand.
Maybe I should get some tips from Curse then because you absolutely nailed it.
I'll start off by saying my personal expectations for this build were pretty low. I now you can make a good build Kendrix, but as soon as I saw "anime" I was like"NOPE!" But I gave it a read anyway and damn am I glad I did. Very very well done here. This is no sloppy copy-paste of some anime character into the Elder Scrolls. This is a fully realized transposition of a concept from one world to another, and you pulled it off brilliantly. Awesome job, hope to be seeing more from you soon.
Haha. Pix, as much of a non-weeb you are, I'm surprised you gave it a read. :P I'm glad you enjoyed it though! Let me know if theres anything you think could change!
Nothing springs to mind immediately. It's very well done. I see you said you were helped along by Curse. He has trained you well lol
This was me too. I never checked out this build because I just don't like anime, but after reading through it, I might even play this at one point!
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